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Transfer chaos may run a for decade
Monday, 18 January 2010
enlargeSinn Fein plays down possibility of a resolution Sinn Fein’s education spokesman John O’Dowd is interviewed by the Belfast Telegraph’s Kathryn Torney
A senior Sinn Fein Assembly Member has reiterated his party’s determination to end academic selection in Northern Ireland and played down any possibility of a political resolution to the long running dispute over school transfer.
Instead, education spokesman John O’Dowd called for pressure to be put on grammar schools to come into line with Sinn Fein’s plans.
He also conceded in an exclusive interview with the Belfast Telegraph that an unregulated school transfer system could be in place for 10 years.
And the Upper Bann Assembly Member confirmed that there are currently no talks taking place between the DUP and his party on the thorny issue of agreeing on a replacement for the 11-plus.
So far 10,000 people have signed the Belfast Telegraph’s Sit Down, Sort It Out petition which is calling on the politicians to agree on a way forward in time for this year’s P6 pupils to transfer.
Thousands of P7 pupils across Northern Ireland sat new unregulated entrance exams last term set by 68 schools — mainly grammars — after the politicians failed to agree on a new system.
Mr O’Dowd also claimed there had been “no confusion and mayhem” in schools this year.
This is despite many school principals speaking out publicly about their concerns and also a call from the head of the Northern Ireland Commission for Catholic Education for politicians to act immediately to deal with the current legislative vacuum.
Avril Hall Callaghan, general secretary of the Ulster Teachers’ Union, has called on the Education Minister to make it a priority for 2010 to resolve the “transfer test scandal”.
Ms Hall Callaghan said: “Thousands of this year’s P7 children have already been through the trauma of the unregulated exams set by grammar schools — some of them facing up to five papers — and more uncertainty lies ahead as we wait to see how the system copes with any appeals.
“That this was allowed to happen is a scandal but surely our politicians will not allow yet another cohort of children go through this.
“In the middle of what has become a huge raging debate throughout Northern Ireland, it is the children’s welfare which should be paramount but which, sadly, seems too often to be forgotten in the storm of politics and self-interest.”
In the interview, which took place before the Iris Robinson scandal emerged, Mr O’Dowd said that the wide grade intake at many grammar schools shows they are in fact all-ability schools and are “fooling no-one other than themselves”.
Alliance Party education spokesperson Trevor Lunn has again called on Sinn Fein to join the other main parties taking part in weekly transfer talks at Stormont.
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46 Comments
SM the data is easily available on line, go to the DENI web site and all sort of interesting statistics can be accessed.
I cannot follow you argument, earlier you claimed 45% of those in Uni in NI are from the ROI now you are claiming just what exactly? You mention 'the mainland' and the numbers that stay skewing the figures but I am afraid you have not made your point very clear to readers at all.
What is it????
As to your suggestions of a vote, there has not been a formal referendum on academic rejection, rather there was a coordinated 'write in' by old boys and girls.
I for one would welcome a referendum as the majority of parents in NI have had their child rejected by the reactionary establishment.
Posted by Exasperated | 09.02.10, 16:40 GMT
One third of all children receive FSM. That's what your saying, one third over all NI. Do me this favour then. Post the link to your source of information, I would like to peruse that information for myself and not take your selective slant on it. Freedom of information and all that. I'm also sure with your sources you will also be able to see how many "Grammar" pupils take up places on the Mainland. You may find that it is higher than the number that stay, thereby skewing your 45% figure, but lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Better still, but the Academic Selection debate to a vote, a proper referendum, let the people decide. Oh yes, we have already done that this year.
You improve the attainment of disadvantaged children by educating them in Primary school as you are paid to do, thereby given them the ability to sit selection tests.
Posted by SM | 08.02.10, 16:17 GMT
The average FSM percentage in the NI population is 32%. In all ability schools it is nearer 38% (some inner city schools have 60% or more).
Grammar schools have 7% or much, much less (incidentally this is recognised as a problem by AQE etc themselves). These figures illustrate active social selection by grammar schools to reject those from less advantaged backgrounds.
To suggest, as you do, that 45% of university students in Northern Ireland originate from ROI is risible.
Now I have addressed your concerns SM please return the complement by outlining how maintaining the status quo will contribute to improving the educational attainment of disadvantaged children who up till now have been ignored by the great and the good in the pro-grammar lobby?
Please explain how those grammars accepting ever widening abilities are centres of academic excellence?
And finally please explain why all ability schools are out performing selective grammar schools?
Posted by Exasperated | 08.02.10, 13:33 GMT
After all that Exasperated, you still haven't proven why there should be more than 7% of FSM in Grammars. You are the one that brought it up without the common sense to realise that it should not be higher.
And on the 45% from non grammar at NI Universities. Is that because they are from the ROI.......confirmation please....
Posted by SM | 08.02.10, 10:25 GMT
I am from a strong working class background and along with my siblings was always encouraged by my parents to work hard at school, get a good education, and a good job. I have tried to instill the same beliefs and strong work ethic in my own children in order that they give something back to society and make a valuable contribution to life in Northern Ireland. Are my children now considered to be privileged and middle class because of the efforts of myself and my parents? Are they to be punished because I have brought them up to believe it is important to do your best and be the best you can? The academic selection decision should be a personal one made by parents who can be bothered to put the effort in with their kids instead of the undemocratic farce it has been turned into by politicians with a chip on their shoulder.
Posted by CC | 05.02.10, 21:56 GMT
.Influential as I am SM it is not me, nor those who are standing up for the underpriveledged, who chose FSM as an indicator of social disadvantage. All parties in the Assembly and at Westminster acknowledge FSM is an indicator of social disadvantage.
It is this figure that all parties use in their social planning and to formulate their policies.
If you have a difficulty with this I am sorry but there is really nothing that I can do about it.
If you are arguing that grammar schools are socially inclusive, socially heterogeneous and positively contributing to social mobility I'd love to see your research to support such contention.
All the evidence is again' you SM.
As to NI University places, 45% are filled by children from non-grammar backgrounds; so much for the ‘special route grammars provide to 3rd level education’.
Posted by Exasperated | 05.02.10, 16:08 GMT
Ok, how about the large numbers of A Level students over the years who attained University places in the UK ahead of Mainland students, and some of those students being made offers over the phone even when they did not make the grades requested at the initial offer. Match that to the number of students coming the other way to attend Higher Education here. It speaks volumes for the Comprehensive Education system....Let the campaigners have their way and give parents no quantitive measure as to how their children are being taught. This is as much about the performance of teachers as children. As a parent whose taxes pay their wages, I want to know how my childrens educators are performing. As is my right. And you still haven't answered the question of the 7% free school meals.
Posted by SM | 05.02.10, 08:31 GMT
Exasperated
There is no debate over academic selection and grammar schools. The attempt to impose comprehensive education failed. Choice continues to exist for those who wish to avail of the option for a grammar school place.
You hardly need reminding that the DENI-funded research by Professor Gallagher and Alan Smith was criticized when it was published a decade ago as non-peer reviewed (selective). It was PACE who pointed this out via the BT.
Please give up your pseudo-academic attempts to reignite a "debate". Your argument is lost. Equality of opportunity has won.
Posted by Parental Alliance for Choice in Education | 05.02.10, 07:18 GMT
SM saying something, even again and again, doesn't make it true. This is what PACE has been doing on these comment boards; it doesn't move the debate forward at all.
Reasoned debate requires more than ideological posturing and bias; FACTS are much more important.
It is incontestable that ALL research into the selective system in Northern Ireland (and indeed further a field) illustrates that the middle classes (or the advantaged) are the main beneficiaries of our current system.
There is social homogeneity in grammar schools; primary evidence I offer to readers as someone who has worked for many years in this milieu.
The Joseph Rowntree Institute published research in conjunction with QUB into the effects of poverty on educational attainment; this is available to readers and it is independent evidence supporting my opinions.
As yet no counter data has been cited by pro selectionists for readers to peruse.
Posted by Exasperated | 04.02.10, 15:52 GMT
So Exasperated: Every Grammar in NI is selecting only children from the Middle Classes, really.....So the big Grammar school in North Belfast and the excellent Catholic Grammars on the Cityside of Derry are selecting from the Middle Classes. Thats great, I am sure all those residents and parents are now glad to know that they are the "Middle Classes"....and their kids didn't get there on merit. Your the one that doesn't get it and your argument is over, unlike transfer tests.
Posted by SM | 04.02.10, 13:22 GMT
SM I am selecting your words that indicate a particular problem with the historical situation of education in NI; grammar schools are selecting nice middle class children, while rejecting and damaging others.
There is a world of difference, I am sorry if you don't get it.
PACE so no 'double counting' then Steve!
I do not support the rights of the strong to advantage themselves at the expense of the weak; I do not support middle class parents creating a middle class ghetto by excluding those from others strata in society; I do not support an institution protecting it's self at the expense of others.
I do support excellence in education (and unlike you have the record to prove this) and I do support equality of opportunity.
Hope that's clear for you Steve.
Posted by Exasperated | 03.02.10, 14:09 GMT
Exasperated,
Over twenty seven thousand parents of P7 pupils support the PACE position. The evidence for which is the fact that they entered their children for the unregulated tests allowing them to compete for a grammar school place. Your refusal to support their right to do so while collecting a salary from them indicates that it is you who has a difficulty viz a viz hypocrisy and competition of interests. PACE have yet to receive your application for affiliation. Are you afraid to identify yourself or do you just not support parental rights in education?
Posted by Parental Alliance for Choice in Education | 02.02.10, 21:52 GMT
Exasperated:
"Their is no problem with disadvantaged children attending grammars, I had friends at school from that background who were their on merit, not what they could afford. "
Your views are highly selective also. You left this bit out. So, you can be selective and Grammar schools can't..There you go now
Posted by SM | 02.02.10, 13:25 GMT
Exasperated: you need to come into the real world. Children that didn't sit the old 11 plus no more wanted to attend a Grammar and be socially inclusive as those who did sit the test, who no more wanted to attend their local secondary. No amount of moral judgement will change that. So give up the crusade and let the rest of make our own choices.
Oh and you still haven't answered the issue of the 7% on free school meals.
Posted by SM | 02.02.10, 13:09 GMT
Still no supporting evidence for your position PACE!
I trust readers will make their own inferences about the intellectual validity of an opinion held without any supporting evidence.
You have not addressed any of the points made in my posts resorting to insults, threats and obfuscation.
This says much about your little group.
Oh and if you wish to discuss arrogance Steve, how about a self appointed unrepresentative reactionary right wing group that claims to speak for parents?
Posted by Exasperated | 02.02.10, 12:32 GMT
Exasperated,
Thank you for falling into the arrogance trap set for you.
You will know then that the GTCNI have no current legal powers to discipline teachers. The fact that this is so reveals the gap between teachers and parents on accountability.
Posted by Parental Alliance for Choice in Education | 02.02.10, 10:32 GMT
I re post for readers the following statements from SM:-
"a vast majority from disadvantaged backgrounds do not want to be socially active within educational establishments"
"They also don't want to pay the "voluntary" fees that come with this and would rather have everything handed to them on a plate"
These statements, and underlying attitudes they reveal, crystallise the problem with a socially selective system that we currently have; it engenders appalling social snobbery and bias.
Surely to God in an egalitarian society we should leave such benighted attitudes behind?
Posted by Exasperated | 02.02.10, 09:56 GMT
Exasperated: Have you ever asked those of a disadvantaged nature do they want to attend Grammars. Probably not, as you fail to miss the point that a vast majority from disadvantaged backgrounds do not want to be socially active within educational establishments and see them as child minding services. They also don't want to pay the "voluntary" fees that come with this and would rather have everything handed to them on a plate. Their attitude is "here's my child, look after him, sure I went to secondary school, so will they". Your arguments carry no weight. Their is no problem with disadvantaged children attending grammars, I had friends at school from that background who were their on merit, not what they could afford.
Posted by SM | 02.02.10, 08:46 GMT
PACE dear Oh dear Oh dear,
Losing the argument bullies tend to resort to threats (GTCNI indeed!)
Being a professional educator, responsible for those outstanding results in grammar schools you are always banging on about, I fully understand the role, responsibilities and powers that the GTCNI has.
You unfortunately as a layperson clearly have no conception of the educational structure within Northern Ireland.
Reallyif threatening those who disagree with you is the best you can manage.......
As to the actions of grammar schools at admission, well ALL studies show that 'somehow' the vast majorities attending such institutions come from more privileged backgrounds; even at a time of demographic decline!
This is hard to understand unless there is active social selection occurring . Even those grammars admitting more D than A grades recently have managed to maintain the social homogeneity of their intake.
Still no references for readers to consult supporting you PACE.
Posted by Exasperated | 29.01.10, 17:52 GMT
Exasperated: What has free school meals got to do with being from a working class background.Many, many people of a "working class" background are not entitled to free school meals simply because they work.......With the current rate of unemployment running at 7% approx, your figures would be right and in fact should not be any higher. Wise up.........
Posted by SM | 28.01.10, 08:17 GMT
46 Comments