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Ireland's National Library silent on Mormon file 'fiddling' claims
Monday, 25 August 2008
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The director of Ireland's National Library has refused to comment on reports that the Mormons are using its records to re-baptise dead Catholics in their faith.
However Aongus O hAonghusa, director of the National Library of Ireland, has said that microfilms of Catholic parish registers are already available in many local heritage centres throughout the country.
The controversy has arisen in the Irish Catholic newspaper after it reported that Archbishop Dermot Clifford and Bishop Bill Murphy have written to the National Library stating that they were "taken aback" that records handed over by the Church are now open to "all comers".
This relates to Mormons -- or members of the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints -- trawling through parish records and using the names to posthumously baptise dead Catholics in the Mormon faith as part of a so-called "proxy baptism service".
A spokesperson for the Mormons told the Irish Catholic: "Posthumous baptisms by proxy have been common practice for the Mormons for more than a century allowing the dead to be baptised into the faith so they may be united in the after life", and she added that all available records are used to carry out this practice.
But Mr O hAonghusa, though refusing to be drawn into the controversy, has said that most Irish dioceses now allow unrestricted public access to their records, which have been handed over to the National Library.
"It is worth noting that all bar three Catholic dioceses had lifted any restrictions on access to the National Library's holding of microfilmed parish-registered records some years ago. In the case of the remaining three dioceses, the level of access varied from none in the case of records from the diocese of Cashel and Emily to minor restrictions in the case of the diocese of Cloyne and Kerry.
"You should be aware that microfilms of the Roman Catholic parish registers are already available in many local heritage centres through the country."
The growing concern in the Irish Church has emerged just months after the Vatican warned bishops' conferences around the world about Mormons accessing diocesan and parish registers, according to the Irish Catholic.
A source told the newspaper there is now a fear among senior Irish churchmen that making the records freely available will "encourage Mormons to baptise dead Irish Catholics en masse".
Archbishop Clifford told the Irish Catholic: "The Archdiocese has not surrendered its claim to copyright of the records held in trust at the National Library. In due course, a full statement on the matter will be made."
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i do not think that any catholic need fear this 'rebatism'thing of the mormons...if you really believe that the catholic church is the one and only true church than the mormons are just spinning thier wheels for nothing...and if they are?.? well....it is just according to how you really believe down deep. In any case the God of this world will make all things right in the day of judgement.
Posted by paulette tunnell | 01.11.08, 20:38 GMT
I think that when we all get to the other side it will not be one church vs. another church, but it will be the Gospel of Jesus Christ, administered by men who are called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof. After Jesus was crucified and laid in the tomb he went and preached to the spirits in prison. (1 Pet 3:18-21). Why did Jesus cause that preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to be brought to the spirits who were in prison? That through his atonement, and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved. (D&C 138:4). "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Pet 4:6). Why are they then baptized for the dead? (1 Cor 15:29). Baptism for the dead is a vicarious act of redemption of the dead, with great love for our ancestors.
Posted by Jim | 12.10.08, 00:41 GMT
It is an interesting fact that without the Mormon's (Formal name: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints") having copied these records for over a hundred years, the Catholic parish records would still remain, in most cases, unavailable to all except those who could visit the individual parish/diocese. It is not just the Mormons who are interested in family history research.
Posted by Gary | 09.10.08, 12:51 GMT
There was such an interesting note in previous posting about thousands being baptized, was it in China, with a fire hose?
Baptisms by proxy are done one at a time with specific reference to that person by name, are witnessed by at least two persons, and there is not such thing as mass baptisms by proxy.
Posted by Harry | 18.09.08, 19:10 GMT
The truth of the matter as many people have already alluded to, is that the powers-that-be within the Catholic church do, in fact, know that the Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the true and living church. If not, why would they care about Mormons reading their records unless the ordinances the Mormons are doing actually have some effect. This also has been attested to by several ex-Catholic Bishops and Arch-Bishops who have come out and said that the leaders of the Catholic church are very aware of the veracity of the LDS church.
To those who claim that the world would be better w/o religion ... Perhaps you should consider which religion(s) has (have) been the source of all this religiously-fueled contention, bloodshed, and wars. The truth is that only when people truely know that what they do in this life will affect their happiness and standing in the next (and forever) will they honestly consider how their day-to-day actions affect those around them.
Posted by Bryan | 17.09.08, 17:31 GMT
Catholic, ecclesiastical rulers, why are you so worried about what people DO with the records they access? If The Ch of Jes Chr of LDS is false, as you suppose, then what possible harm is it to you steeped in the traditions of your own beliefs as to whether the prisoner go free in the next life if they can't be liberated here in this life? Will you chain an eternal soul to solitary confinement forever as the Bible was chained to your pulpit, for awhile, only to be interpreted by whoever you deem sanctioned to speak about it confined to your dogma or will you allow all to pursue happiness acocrding to their inalienable rights rather than have happiness thrust upon them by the respective clergy who are only men with an opinionated mind to vary the doctrines, in any case, as the fads and trends of time deem necessary in your opinions; however, if Truth be pure and diamond, and the doctrines of salvation be restored back to the earth in their pure form to liberate the captive why stop it?
Posted by mohktar riatti | 12.09.08, 11:57 GMT
What a laugh. Baptism for the dead has been here since hector was a pup. Why don't the Catholics do some for themselves if they are so worried.
Posted by L Mackay | 08.09.08, 03:07 GMT
I was born in a Catholic hospital in the United States, specifically in the state of Oklahoma. I found out later that babies in this hospital were routinely baptized by Catholic officials no matter what the family's religious affiliation was. I am a Mormon and my family is part Mormon and part Protestant. I was touched at the generosity of those sweet nuns in the hospital who wanted to make sure that the babies born there received the saving sacraments that they believed were necessary. I see this as a true act of charity even though my particular religious beliefs do not include baptizing infants. I was never offended by this action and I was later baptized in accordance with my beliefs. I hope that my Catholic friends can see that any Mormon family members who have their Catholic ancesters baptized for the dead do so in this same act of charity and love.
Posted by Barbara | 04.09.08, 20:40 GMT
A lot of Catholics have joined the Mormon Church over the years, and these people should be able to do what they want regarding their ancestors. Whether these Mormon baptisms are honorable or not is not a judgment for the Church- it's a judgment for the family and descendants of those being baptised for.
Posted by Anonymous | 27.08.08, 19:12 GMT
First of all, no dead person is unwittingly baptised into the Mormon faith. Baptism for the dead is a temple ordinance which allows the dead to have this Christian earthly ordinance performed vicariously on thier behalf. Mormons do this for their dead ancestors. The dead, who are alive spiritually and aware of what is happening on earth, have the option of accepting or rejecting it. It is not forced on anyone and is not valid unless the person accepts it. Mormons believe baptism is only valid if performed by an authorized priesthood holder and that there are no multiple religious denominations in the after-life.
Catholics think that allowing Mormons access to parish records cooperates in this ordinance which they consider hertical.
Posted by JLFuller | 26.08.08, 15:09 GMT
I was raised Catholic (my great-grandfather was born in Limerick) and I joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 10 years ago. I have spent a lot of time thinking about this sensitive issue, and this is my frank conclusion: we both think we're right, that is, we both think we are the true church of Christ. And one of us certainly is. If Catholics are right, then proxy baptism has no effect one way or another on a person's soul. But if Mormons are right, well then, there would be a great need to perform baptisms by proxy for all who have ever walked the earth, in order to give those people the opportunity to accept or reject the Gospel.
Posted by Joe Coffey | 26.08.08, 04:55 GMT
Why not let the Mormons do what they want? This kind of practice shouldn't seem foreign. Catholics used to baptize for the dead also, but discontinued the practice after the Apostles were killed for unknown reasons...see below scripture on the topic:
"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" 1st Corinthians 15:29
Posted by Sean | 25.08.08, 20:40 GMT
This is pure misunderstanding; the baptisms the LDS church perform are only done "in case" the person desires to follow that path after they've passed on. There is no forced baptism or understanding that someone must join the LDS church if a baptism is performed for them. Also, the deceased in question isn't baptized; only a proxy volunteer who hopes that someday their great-grandfather (etc.) will join their religion.
Also, I'm a bit confused as to why a completely separate theology (Catholic) would take issue with an ordinance they don't believe in (baptism for the dead), being practiced in a place they don't believe in (the LDS conception of the spirit world), by people who they don't believe have authority to do so (LDS priesthood). What's to fear if you believe it's all falsehoods anyway?
Religions should cast aside misunderstandings and join hands in addressing what has become the most virulently anti-religious environment the world has yet seen.
Posted by Marc | 25.08.08, 14:31 GMT