Colin,

No, I was not taught about raping female prisoners of war during RE in school. I read it for myself in the bible, here is the passage:-

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (NIV)

Marrying a Captive Woman

10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

I repeat again, I have no problem with kids being taught ABOUT religion. Teach - Yes. Indoctrinate - NO.

Do you get it now?

Posted by Will Hawkes | 26.09.09, 14:42 GMT

Is that big copy and paste from an encyclopedia supposed to be relevant Joanne?

Posted by John McLean | 26.09.09, 13:38 GMT

"If you get on a bus/train etc, you put faith in the driver that he will get you to desired location safe and sound. Getting onto an aeroplane takes faith"

Faith is conclusively not what you're using here. Transport companies must use people specially trained and tested in driving buses/trains, there are laws governing this. Ditto with airlines. There are rigorous safety checks on vehicles, the highway code, accident records for each individual airline etc etc etc. This is absolutely not the sort of blind faith you have in christianity. Try again.

Posted by John McLean | 26.09.09, 13:35 GMT

Historical criticism of the Bible text has produced a mass of research detail that has given ammunition to those who wish to attack the Bible and claim that it is corrupted. But the fact is that the mass of research proves just one thing. No book of antiquity has been preserved so well as the Bible, which exists in thousands of ancient manuscripts and manuscript fragments. Those who criticize the details are failing to see the forest for the trees, the miracle of the preservation of the Bible. It is unique in history.A number of arguments can be made for the validity of the Bible. Archaeology has proven it correct time and again. The Ebla, Nuzi, and Mari tablets have silenced critics of the Bible in regard to the patriarchal period. Advances in history consistently show the Bible correct. The Assyrian king Sargon was unknown, except in the Bible, until the discovery of his palace in Khorsabad, Iraq, which even confirmed his conquest of Ashdod as reported in Isaiah 20.

Posted by Joanne | 25.09.09, 11:57 GMT

Will: Were you taught in school, through your religious education, that you were to rape women prisoners of war?

The Church built the Universties of Europe and hosptials. Priests, Monks, Pope's contirbuted so much to science and mathematics that they are taught in schools today (for example, Mendelson Genetics). You cannot deny the positive influence the Church has had on the progression of the world.

The ignorance displayed in your post, ie., you know what I believe and that I force my belief on others is typical, so you do not suprise me.

I only know about you what you displayed in your posts and your misunderstanding of the fundamentals of Christianity is apparent.

God bless you and keep you.

Posted by Colin | 25.09.09, 00:12 GMT

John, I beg to differ. Each and everyone of us uses faith everyday. If you get on a bus/train etc, you put faith in the driver that he will get you to desired location safe and sound. Getting onto an aeroplane takes faith, stepping out your front door into the big bad world, takes faith. I could go on and on. We could not live our lives without faith, because if we didnt have faith in anything, then we wouldnt step out out front doors. And yes, it is harder to put our faith into something we cannot see, but I havent met one Christian yet who has regretted making the decision to follow God, so myself and people just like me, obviously have enough proof to put their faith into God, the Lord of all, who yes is unseen in the literal terms, But look around you, He is in everything that is living and non living, you just have to look a bit harder.

Posted by Joanne | 24.09.09, 19:00 GMT

Are Collins, Swinburne and Heller (to name a few) more intelligent than McLean, Hawkes et al.?

Do internet atheists use the same points time and time again?

Is this debate worthless?

Did the author of the original letter mention the existence of God?

Posted by conor | 24.09.09, 15:59 GMT

Its not an accident at all that i became a Christian. Its not a decision that anyone makes lightly. It was by my own free will that I became a Christian, and that free will was given to me by God. And I know you say I have no proof, but I do have proof, I have proof everyday my prayers are answered. Things that happen time and time again, cannot be just put down to coincidences. Can you explain to me, why my whole life has changed for the better since becoming a Christian? You cannot tell me that I have 2 or 3 or many more "coincidences" happening every week. God is real and true, and for that I am certain.
John, what do you believe will happen when you die?

Posted by Joanne | 24.09.09, 15:31 GMT

Joanne:

Name me one other area of life where you use faith to make a decision? You don't, because faith is completely useless.

The fact is that every single other religion out there has as much proof as you do, it's by complete accident of birth that you've ended up a christian.

Posted by John McLean | 24.09.09, 15:12 GMT

John i dont know what else to say to you other than what ive already said. It is by faith that i know God is real and true and I have no doubt whatsoever, other wise i wouldnt be a christian. Since becoming a Christian, my life has changed dramatically for the better and its because I am living my life for the Lord! I dont need any "hard evidence" as so many of you do, as i have enough evidence with how good the Lord is to me and how He's always there for me. My faith is what leads me to wake up each day and know that God is looking after me. I know that wont be good enough for most of you, but that's what Christian's base there lives on. FAITH!

Posted by Joanne | 24.09.09, 14:10 GMT

Colin,

"I too believe an irrational belief in a "god" has no place in a school or government but I do support a rational belief in Our Blessed Lord and Saviour should take primacy in school, government and all aspects of life" - that is religious fundamentalism, my friend. Surely you cannot believe that? If that was the case then science, medicine, women's rights, education, equality, and various other issues that people have fought so hard for would disappear very quickly indeed.

Take women for example, women throughout the bible are treated like second-class citizens and are clearly thought of as only being the 'property' of men. The bible teaches that it is acceptable to rape female prisoners of war. It teaches us that a rapist should be forced to marry his victim and only has to compensate her father, but not her.

You are entitled to your beliefs, but you are not entitled to force your beliefs onto anyone else, especially ones as heinous as those outlined above.

Posted by Will Hawkes | 24.09.09, 12:42 GMT

Again, I don't think anyone is against teaching about religion per se, what I'm against is its propagation in schools.

There is absolutely no reason why religious initiation ceremonies should be conducted during school time - I found this a profoundly disturbing notion. School should be a safe, secular place for learning, nothing more.

If the current situation continues with Catholic children attending Catholic schools and Protestant ones attending state schools how on earth do you ever attempt to really integrate society? Children must learn together, free from the constraints that this system imposes on them - and impose it does.

And don't try and say that Catholic schools don't teach a differing cultural point of view, they do. Having recently visited a Catholic school in NI, I saw evidence of shamrocks, Celtic crosses and Tricolours painted everywhere. The kids there learn Irish and about Celtic legends. Is it the same in state (Protestant) schools? I highly doubt it.

Posted by Saighdúirí | 24.09.09, 11:29 GMT

There is a hell of a lot of blinkered thinking here. Colin, in the Republic of Ireland some 80 per cent of primary schools are managed by the Catholic Church. Is that a healthy situation to you?

I can tell you that having gone to a "Catholic" primary school, it is an unmitigated disaster. Children there are prepared, during school-time, for first communion and confirmation. This is wrong. This sort of activity has nothing to do with learning and everything to do with indoctrinating children into a certain path. Anyone from a different religion could either leave the room while this preparation was going on or come along for the experience. When I informed my French girlfriend about this, she was shocked & rightly so. What kind of society are we propagating here?

Luckily, religious division in the South is most a thing of the past. But imagine if it weren't. What kind of segregated impact would the schooling have?

You want to practice religion? Fine. Do it in your own time.

Posted by Saighdúirí | 24.09.09, 11:21 GMT

Joanne: Are you still refusing to answer the circular reasoning comment?

Posted by John McLean | 24.09.09, 10:24 GMT

Well said Colin. God Bless You.

Posted by Joanne | 24.09.09, 08:49 GMT

How many of the arrogant atheists here are members of a professional society/college?
How many have degrees (worth talking about)?

Yet they are "experts" in everything and its funny how they can spend all day every day posting on this layman's website

Posted by conor | 24.09.09, 08:45 GMT

Will: There has been murder, rebellion, torture etc. in Ireland long before religion was taught in schools. I think you are using "The Troubles" to hide behind your argument against teaching religion in schools.

I believe the true intention behind your arguement is simply you believe " An irrational belief in a 'god' has no place in a school or in government.

I somewhat agree - I too believe an irrational belief in a "god" has no place in a school or government but I do support a rational belief in Our Blessed Lord and Saviour should take primacy in school, government and all aspects of life.

I do pray that in your search for the truth you do find God as he is not far from you.

Posted by Colin | 24.09.09, 01:09 GMT

Ulysses32,

I apologise if my argument is somewhat nuanced. I do not think that anyone is suggesting that 'religious education' is causing a divided and segregated society. I personally do not have a problem with kids being taught about religion, as long as it is done in a balanced way and that kids are told that not everyone is religious or that they have to be religious. In my opinion, it is a subject matter that all children should be made aware of.

What is causing a problem is the fact that children are separated at the age of four or five because of religion, not because of religious education, and they then grow up in complete and utter isolation from each other. It creates a 'them and us' society.

Who benefits from kids being segregated and educated separately? The Catholic Church? The British Government? I would argue that both have benefited hugely from this madness. Divide and rule, the old adage is still alive and well in NI today.

Posted by Will Hawkes | 23.09.09, 17:58 GMT

sorry lucky, i thought i was making a valid point, but if you know different then sorry. i wasn't acting superior to anyone, so i hope that comment wasnt to me. i just thought it would be a good idea, but if integrated schools teach religion then fair enough, i didnt know that.

Posted by Joanne | 23.09.09, 15:07 GMT

Colin,

In regards to the issue of celebrating Christmas in state schools in the US, have you ever considered the fact that not everyone who attends those schools are Christians? Some may be Muslims, some may be Sikhs, some may be Hindus, some may even be Scientologists. Not everyone in the US is a Christian, there are many other groups out there with equally invalid and laughable fairy stories of their own, and, under the law, they all have to be treated equally. In the US there is a defined separation between church and state, that is the way it should be. An irrational belief in a 'god' has no place in a school or in government.

Again, no one is trying to deny these children the right to be Christians or to celebrate Christmas, they should just do it away from school. They can do whatever, or believe whatever, they like as long as the state does not pay for it.

Having catholic and protestant schools is undoubtedly constructing differences, think about it for a second.

Posted by Will Hawkes | 23.09.09, 13:06 GMT